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Dynamo
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|  Sujet: Tudor Submariner  Mar 19 Juil - 16:39 | |
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| Citation: |
Tudor and the French Navy: a love story?
by Saad Zinai
Rolex did not have the same commercial success with the Tudor Submariner as with its parents, the Rolex 5512 and 5513 Submariners. Tudors were sold at a fraction of the 5513 price and so it was not difficult for the French Navy (La Marine Nationale) to negotiate a good deal for significant number of pieces.
Unlike contracts for the U.S. and British Royal Navy, which specified all the characteristics of timepieces from size to materials, the French government contracts were purely commercial contracts. Therefore, the Marine Nationale (or M.N.) provided its divers with many different watches including Zenith, Doxa, Longines, Rolex, Blancpain, Beuchat, Auricoste and many others. But that's another story.
Early on, the French Navy equipped its divers (plongeurs de bord) with Tudor Submariners. The first Tudors were purchased by the M.N. in the late 60's. This model seemed to meet army specifications for Commando Marines. It was then the classic "rose" model, (see right) featuring case reference 7928 and the Rolex-derived 390 movement. Curiously, this model had the same sharp crown shoulders as the first Rolex 5512. The back is prominent and flat (unlike the bubble-back-like of that of further models). These models do not hack, but backwards action will stop the movement.
Unfortunately, Rolex kept no manufacturing records for these watches, and therefore, it remains difficult to date them accurately. A good indication is the date marked inside the back (something like I-67, for first quarter 1967, according to Rolex)
Ironically, the same model was issued by the U.S. Navy to their UDT and Navy SEALS (see Marvin Whitney's Military Timepieces for more details). Like their american cousins, the M.N. Tudors were always issued "head only." The absence of any sign of wear between lugs that a metal bracelet might have produced is a good clue for purists.
In 1974, the M.N. started to extensively equip their commando marines with Tudor submariners. From this point, most of the watches (except a few, for some "sterile" reasons) are marked on the back MN 19xx or MNxx. This date -1974- is very important from a collector's point of view. This transitional model (case reference 7016/0) always has a black dial and "square" or "diamond hands" (see below) The case back is slightly different from subsequent models in that it retains somewhat of a "bubble back" look. The movement is now an ETA 2483, non-hack, no longer found on the earlier models. Of course, the rose is no longer the Tudor emblem, replaced in the late 60's by the current shield.
The poor quality of the dial coating and its vulnerability to moisture led Rolex to propose another dial. Starting in 1975 dials with a blue finish were introduced which had much better tolerability to water. These dials had square then "Mercedes" style markers and hands (see images to the right.) These blue dials proved to be an excellent choice in that the dials were coated with an enameled material which prevents ageing. I have seen (and own) many mercedes-ed Tudors, with ruined cases, faded bezels, brownish hands. The dial was always intact ! The case reference is now 9401/0 or 94010, and the movement is the current ETA.
I don't know of any model issued after 1983. Most of The Tudor submariners were auctioned by the army, according to their date of end of service. Some of them are being (as I type this...) destroyed manually by some troopers in Toulon or Brest...I have tried to save some and share with you this piece of the French Naval history.
MN 1982
MN 1983
Thanks to my friend Edward J. ROKE for his contribution
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|   | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:39 | |
| d'autres photo de la Tudor submariner de la marine National :
Source des Photos
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| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:40 | |
| Tudor Submariner 94010, M.N 1978
Sources des infos et photos
| Citation: |
The French Navy, La Marine Nationale, has a long lasting history of using the Tudor and Rolex submariner models. Indeed, the M.N. official diving equipment supplier, La Spirotechnique, signed a succession of commercial contracts with the Swiss watchmaker from the late 60's till the mid 80's. The Tudor submariners were supplied to the French Navy's picked divers such as the Clearance Divers (Plongeurs Démineurs), the Combat Divers (Commandos Marine), and a few selected Ship Divers (Plongeurs de Bord). Being a Ship Diver was then a part-time activity or secondary duty for sailors onboard. In addition to the elite personnel mentioned above, a handful of Combat Diver officers serving in the C.I.N.C. (secret service operational team based on the outer island of Cosica in the Mediterranean sea) were equipped with the famous Rolex submariner 5513.
This very well built and reliable official chronographer were to be used in the most difficult weather conditions. In the early 80's the Tudor submariners were slowly replaced by cheaper maintenance watches as the Ministry of Defense was undergoing a severe budget cut. The 1989 Rainbow Warrior scandal led to the relocation of the C.I.N.C.(renamed C.P.E.O.M.) and the S.D.E.C.E.(renamed D.G.S.E.) and a new contract with Tudor S.A. was not to be renewed
Tudor Marine Nationale :
Ref. 94010 MN78
Cal. Eta 2824-2
Hacking rotor automatic movement
25j.-28.800 A/h
Power reserve 38h.
Water-resistant to 200m.
Matt blue dial
Square/diamond type handset
Buble type case back
Matt blue dial with square/diamond hour hand and markers |
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| | | | Dynamo
Membre référent
Inscrit le : 05 Mai 2005
Messages : 5606
Localisation : Paris
| | | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:41 | |
| ( source => TZ uk )
Tudor Submariner Oyster Prince date 9411/0
 
Tudor MN avec papier de réforme :
Tudor MN 82
Tudor M.N. 77
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| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:42 | |
| Source des photos (un site sur plein de plongeuese) : http://www.scubawatch.org/thumbnail.html
| Citation: |
Tudor MN (Collection privé d'un marchant Hollandais) => uhrenfreund.com
Tudor Oyster Prince Submariner 94010 (MN80)
Tudor Oyster Prince Submariner 94010 MN82
Tudor Oyster Prince Submariner 94010 MN78
Ici une tudor submariner avec des marquages Canadiens (61367-CI)
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Dernière édition par le Mer 20 Juil - 18:38, édité 1 fois |
| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:43 | |
| Source => http://www.francewatches.com/
| Citation: |
Tudor Bleu Submariner MN
case # 94010, cal ETA, square "diamond" hands. Marked MN 83 on back (MN is for Marine Nationale.) These watches were issued to the commando marines aboard active French Navy ships, dedicated to inflitration, underwater demolition, mines clearing, etc. Read more about French Navy Tudors. This one comes with the army certificate from the Groupe de Plongeurs Démineurs, based in Brest
( source: http://www.francewatches.com/)
Tudor Submariner Noire MN :
Case # 94010, cal ETA, mercedes hands. Marked MN 82 on back. (MN is for Marine Nationale.) Extremely rare with a black dial, looks exactly like its parent Rolex submariner 5513. These watches were issued to the commando marines aboard active French Navy ships, dedicated to inflitration, underwater demolition, mines clearing, etc
( source: http://www.francewatches.com/)
Tudor Submariner Noire des US Navy SEALS
US Navy divers, case # 7928, Rolex-derived cal 390, rose logo on dial. Gilt markers. Marked USN 0152 on back. See Marvin Whitney's "Military timepieces" page 585 for more details.
Tudor Submariner Noire (Civile)
Case # 7928, the movement is the famous Rolex-derived caliber 390. The case is still waterproof, even if I don't recommend to swim with this watch. The black dial is original, with nicely yellowed markers, assorted mercedes hands and inner minute track. Note the oversized second hand tip, original to this model
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| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:44 | |
| Tudor Submariner Oyster Prince , modèle no. 7016/0 (Sud Africain)
- BraceletAcier ref. 9315 oyster
- Lunette Bi-directional
( Source TZ UK)
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| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:45 | |
| (Source : http://www.zetleins.onau.net/ )
| Citation: |
REVIEW: 1968 TUDOR SUBMARINER AUTOMATIC
QUESTION: when is a Rolex not a Rolex? Answer: when it’s a Tudor. Rolex have been making watches with the Tudor name on them for many decades, using Rolex cases, bracelets, dials, hands, crystals and crowns—in fact, Rolex everything—except the movements. Admittedly, in the very early days (the 1940s and 50s) Rolex did fit Rolex movements into their 'cheaper line'. As a case in point, the early Tudor Submariners were fitted with the Rolex cal.390 movement. However, later Tudors use what are essentially standard (but high grade) ETA movements with little modification. They may not be as robust as the modern in-house Rolex movements, but they’ve been around a long time and have proved themselves to be accurate and reliable. And, of course, cheaper.
I spotted this little beauty whilst waiting in my local watch repairer’s while he fitted a new battery into my Omega Speedsonic. He has a cabinet of odds and sods for sale, some quite desirable, others not so. This one was on consignment. I asked to see it, and of course, once it was in my hands and ticking, I was sold. I casually gave it back, said I would think about it, and would call back if interested (just call me Mr Cool). He smiled a knowing smile. Don't forget, I had bought the Speedsonic from him. Naturally I called in a couple of days later, bargained a bit, and the Sub was mine.
Now, you have to realise that this style of watch is a complete departure for me. I mean, all it does is tell the time, for crying out loud. No date, no chronograph dials, no alarm, no countdown timer, no slide rule, no automatic time zone setting hands à la Navihawk—just a purpley-grey rotating bezel, and those magic letters "200m=660 ft" on the dial. Oh, I’ve got watches that are 10bar (100m) water resist, and I’ve even had a swim wearing them (no problems), but I’ve always hankered after a real water resistant watch. You know, for all those days when you might unexpectedly find yourself cast overboard from an ocean liner or something. Knowing the correct time then could be very important, such as being able to estimate how long it will be before hypothermia sets in………but I digress. My man said it needed a service; the balance amplitude was down, the case and crystal (acrylic) needed a polish, and the last service date scratched inside the caseback was 1986. He subsequently discovered a worn ratchet wheel in the auto-wind mechanism and replaced it.
Dating my Sub to 1968 (it didn't come with the original papers) was a matter of some simple detective work. Stamped inside the caseback and on the bracelet are the symbols I.68 (Roman I, Arabic 68 ). In Rolex parlance this indicates the first quarter of 1968. An additional piece of evidence is that according to an authoritative source (Automatic Wrist Watches from Switzerland by Heinz Hampel), the ETA 2483 movement inside my watch was not fitted into the Tudor Sub until 1967. Another reliable source (fellow Australian Paul Delury, known on TimeZone as Gumby) tells me that on the Tudor Oysters the rose emblem on the dial was superseded by the shield in the mid-60s; however, he wasn’t sure this also applied to the Subs—it could have been a bit later. Rolex apparently didn’t keep manufacturing records for its Tudor line (strange!), so we may never know for sure.
First Impressions
Anyone familiar with the Rolex Sub will immediately see the strong family resemblance and yet there is something quite distinctive about the Tudor. The bezel diameter is identical at 39.5mm (43.5mm including the crown), the oyster case has the familiar and unique Rolex wrench ring pattern on the back, and the rivetted 12-link bracelet and the large screwdown crown protected by protruding crown guards are unmistakably Rolex. However, the lighter-coloured bezel and the different writing on the dial somehow convey a more ‘refined’ impression compared to the bolder black of the Rolex bezel. In the hand and on the wrist the Tudor looks and feels smaller and lighter than the later Rolex models. The movement is extremely quiet—almost impossible to hear unless it’s right up to your ear. The rotor is silent and vibration-free in its action (no Hamilton wobble here!). The highly-domed acrylic crystal sits a massive 3.5mm above the bezel and is a sure-fire magnet for doorposts and brick walls if you're not careful. Still, being acrylic, it’s a cinch to polish out light scratches using the old toothpaste trick. (Just put a small amount of ordinary toothpaste onto a barely damp soft cloth, rub gently on the crystal, and let dry to a haze. Polish off with a dry, soft cloth. Make sure you don't let the toothpaste run into nooks and crannies where you won't be able to get at it later.)
The hands and hour markers are tritiumed and must have been dazzling when new, for they still shine brightly after exposure to strong light but quickly fade until only the hands (all 3 of them) and the 'pearl' on the bezel give off a very faint glow. The minute markers are very accurately positioned, because once the second and minute hands are coordinated, they maintain an exact relationship at any part of the dial. In other words, at anywhere on the dial, the minute hand points exactly to the minute marker as the second hand passes the 12 o’clock position. I like that in a watch. Legibility of the uncluttered dial is outstanding—even without my glasses. Definitely a plus for the long-sighted!
And then there’s the bracelet. Ahh, the (in)famous Rolex oyster bracelet! This one, being an earlier model (the 7206), has thin folded links with a brushed finish on the outside and polished on the inside. However, the outer links have polished endplates rivetted onto them, giving the appearance of solidity. It feels somewhat light and even flimsy compared to later, thicker and heavier bracelets I have worn. It has those horrible, tinny, pressed metal endpieces that go ‘tchink’ when you move your arm. It’s a hair puller. It doesn’t have a flip lock or wet suit extension. It took me 2 days of fiddling with the adjustment pin in the clasp to get it to feel anywhere near right (luckily there's plenty of adjustment holes). And yet, and yet……….it looks good. I especially like the look of the clasp, with its Rolex crown opener. The clasp hasn’t opened unexpectedly on me…..yet. (I know, Sod’s law says it will happen at the most inconvenient time, like when I’m waving from the top of the Eiffel tower to people on the ground.) It’s beginning to feel almost comfortable. And as for being light, well, you get used to it. With all 12 links in it fits my 7½" (19cm) wrist OK. I may even end up liking it (apart from the endpieces).
[Update—after several months of use, the bracelet now feels very comfortable and hardly pulls a hair (they've probably all been pulled out). I've tightened up the endpieces and virtually eliminated the 'tchink'. The bracelet is now very wearable.]
Performance
It’s early days yet, and no doubt it’s still settling in after the service, but the Tudor is currently running at a consistent +10 secs/day. That’s with being worn during the day and left dial up at night. Hopefully, the consistency of the gain means that some judicious regulation will improve the accuracy, although it must be remembered that this is not a chronometer rated movement.
[Update—after regulation accuracy improved to about +5 secs/day left dial up at night, and +1 sec/day left crown down at night!]
The movement does not hack (i.e. it doesn't stop when you pull out the crown), but for accurate time setting you can stop it by applying backwards pressure on the crown when in the fully extended position. This is easier to accomplish when the mainspring is nearly unwound. When it's fully wound, the movement is very reluctant indeed to stop! After an initial full winding when I first got it 6 days ago, I haven’t touched the crown. The crown itself is delightfully smooth and positive to screw and unscrew, as is winding the mainspring with it. The crown carries the Rolex symbol only, so is of the 'Twinlock' type. (The improved 'Triplock' sealing system is indicated by the addition of three dots under the Rolex crown symbol.) I don’t know what the power reserve is—probably in the range of 38-42 hours, which seems common for this type of movement. I haven’t tried wearing the watch in water yet.
[Update—measured power reserve is 41.75 hours from full wind to stop.]
SPECIFICATIONS
Tudor Oyster Prince Submariner, model no. 7016/0. Signed on dial, crown, caseback, movement, bracelet and clasp.
Movement: ETA 2483 25-jewel bi-directional rotor automatic; 18,000 bph (2.5Hz); Glucydur balance; incabloc shock protection. Modification/embellishment - minimal; some perlage evident. Centre sweep seconds hand. Non-hacking but backwards pressure will cause movement to stop (eventually!).
Case: Stainless steel, all polished except for brushed finish to tops of and between lugs; screw back signed "Original Oyster Case by Rolex Geneva"; water resistant to 200m/660ft; 'Mercedes'-style hands; weight incl. steel bracelet approx. 90g; 39.5mm Ø across bezel excl. crown; 20mm between lugs; 47.5mm across lugs; 13.5mm overall thickness. Tritium paint on hands and hour markers.
Crown: 7mm Ø screwdown Twinlock signed with Rolex crown symbol.
Bracelet: Stainless steel 12-link rivetted oyster, non-flip lock deployant clasp with Rolex crown symbol as opener.
Bezel: Bi-directional, no indents.
Crystal: Acrylic, convex.
Summary
The Tudor Submariner is like a Mercedes with a Ford engine. The external parts are solid, tried and tested, and immediately recognisable. The internals are also dependable and efficient, but somehow don’t have the same aura or cachet of the luxury brand. This is fortunate for the collector of the unusual, for it means that with the Tudor Submariner, a quality product can be had for relatively little outlay compared to its more famous sibling—although I note that prices for vintage Tudors are rising as good ones become rarer. To carry the car analogy a bit further, fixing the motor is cheaper too, should anything go wrong.
I prefer the more discreet appearance of the Tudor Sub compared to its Rolex brother, with its ‘vintage’ aged dial (somewhat like myself), and am delighted with the performance so far from this 30-year old timekeeper. And it’ll never need a battery! Now, where did I put my snorkel and flippers…..?
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Dernière édition par le Ven 9 Sep - 19:36, édité 1 fois |
| | | | Dynamo
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| | | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:48 | |
| Catalogue de Tudor 1972 - Japon
Tudor submarinr Oyster Prince date modèle 7021/0 pour 86 000 Yen de l'époque (ce qui représente 636,44€ ou 4 174,92 FRF avec le cours de maintenant)
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| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 16:49 | |
| Cadrant en foncton du Modèle de Tudor Submariner Oyster
7922 (Calibre Tudor 390 de 1958)
7924 ( Tudor big crown "BREVET,et Calibre Tudor 390 de 1958)
7928 (Calibre Tudor 390 de 1963)
7928/0 ( (vers les années 1973 )
7528
76100 ( date des années 80 et 90)
7016/0
7016/0 de 1968
7016/0 des années 1970
7016/0 de 1974
9401/0
94010( années 78-83)
94010( années 82 et 83 )
7021/0 (1972 aux années 80)
9411
9411/0
94110
79090 (de 1991)
79190
75090 années 99-2000 ( taille médium)
référence particuliére ou rare ou de boite de remplacement : 7598 (ou bien simplement des conrefaçons ?)
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| | | | Dynamo
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| | Sujet: Re: Tudor Submariner Mar 19 Juil - 20:19 | |
| Mouvement en foncton du Modèle de Tudor Submariner Oyster
7922- Tudor 390 de 17 rubis
7924-- Tudor 390 de 17 rubis (la boite semble fausse : jjoint sur la boite et pas sur le fond)
7928- - Tudor 390 de 17 rubis ( il aurais un aussi Valjoux 722 ?)
7928/0 -ETA de la famille des ETA 2452
(images probables de faux mouvement tudor, mais sans d'un ETA 2450)
ETA 25-jewel de la la famille des ETA 2452
76100 - ETA2824-1 de 25 rubis
7016/0 ETA (2461) 2483 (spécial pour Tudor) de 25-Rubis (non-hack-pas de stop seconde) (ici un mouvement de 1974)
9401/0 : ETA 2776 de 25 rubis
94010 : ETA 2776 de 25 rubis
7021/0 : ETA2484 de 17 rubis (image probable)
(aprés vérification bonne image du mouvement)
9411 : ETA 2784 de 25 rubis ( immage incertaine)
9411/0 : ETA 2784 de 25 rubis
94110 : ETA 2784 de 25 rubis
79090 : ETA 2824 de 25 rubis
79190 : ETA2824-1 de 25 rubis
Dernière édition par le Jeu 8 Fév - 15:31, édité 4 fois |
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