Types 20 : Les porter ou pas ?

Faut-il porter ses types 20 ? Prenons l'exemple de la Vixa...

Elle n'a pas d'antichoc, les pièces pour la réparer et la réviser se font plus que rare, elle est fragile et capricieuse....



Pour autant , faut-il la laisser dans son tiroir ? Généralement quand on évoque cette montre , certains mettent en avant la présence de Radium pourtant sur les suites médicales liées au port de montres au Radium, il n'y a pas détude sérieuse qui à ma connaisance fasse état de problèmes particuliers.

Alors ces types 20 sont-ils à considérer comme des modèles de vitrine ou des montres à porter pour en profiter en prenant évidemment un minimum de précautions ?

J'ai personnellent opté, je la porte mais pas tout le temps , histoire d'avoir vraiment envie quand je l'ai au poignet ...

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c'est à dire avec beaucoup de précautions !
Les 3 risques majeurs sont les chocs, l'eau et l'utilisation abusive du chrono.
3 risques qu'un amateur sait éviter.
J'aime souvent porter des montres anciennes et donc fragiles, je fais juste plus attention qu'avec une Seiko et je ne les porte que dans des situations où je sais qu'elles ne risquent rien.

Pour quoi pas pas prendre une autre version du type 20 un auricoste ou Dodane (ou DoD, Airain, ou Chronofix) qui me semble avait l' antichoc




sinon un réédition hanhart


(source : http://www.hanhart.com)

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Dynamo a écrit:

Pour quoi pas pas prendre une autre version du type 20 un auricoste ou Dodane (ou DoD, Airain, ou Chronofix) qui me semble avait l' antichoc

Que ce soit Dodanne, , Breguet, Chronfixe, Airain, tous ces chronos furent équipés de Valjoux.
Les premiéres versions sans incabloc, et les suivantes équipées d'incablocs.
Sur les versions équipées des 13 lignes ( R.23 ) les piéces ne mamquent pas, en revanche, sur les versions en 14 lignes ( R.22, 222, 225 et 725 ) la galére se profile tt doucement à l'horizon.

Enfin, c'est plutôt un de mes meilleurs amis Horloger de son état qui m'a refait au tour lun axe et a déniché des pièces d'origine d'un peu partout pour la refaire dans les règles de l'art...Effectivement ça coute et encore je n'avais pas toute la main d'oeuvre à payer puisqu'une grande partie fut "cadeau" .

Comme le dit Arno la galère arrive pour beaucoup de calibres des années 50 et les pièces deviennent si chères qu'un chrono n'est plus loin de se revendre plus cher par pièces détachées qu'en entier...

Quand je pense qu'il y a encore 10 ou 15 ans ça restait sur les étal et se bradait en fin de journée...Si seulement on pouvait remonter le temps...

En plus pour la Vixa, je crois que les Allemands ont fait dans la période de livraison du Hanhart le même calibre avec antichoc mais il l'on gardé pour leurs montres...Dommages de guerre mais pas fous non plus...

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Certes Zen, tu as mis la main sur un horloger ayant un tour, et sachant s'en servir.
Mais, une chose est certaine, il y a plus de bouchers-charcutiers en France, que d'horlogers ayant, et sachant se servir d'un tour.
A mon avis, meme pas un par département, qui soit en mesure de réaliser convenablement une piéce.
Le reste ce sont des

Trouver un horloger qui ne se limite pas à changer une pile de quartzouille ou à remettre un bracelet en griffant les cornes voire changer en verre en en cassant deux...j'avoue que j'appréhende souvent de voir un horloger ouvrir ma montre car 1 sur deux ripe sur le fond alors pour un axe à refaire ...

Il faut dire que les écoles d'horlogerie en France ont énormément souffert des effets induits du quartz et que les horlogers sont de plus en plus sollicités par l'industrie...Pour en voir un s'installer on en voit 10 disparaitre...Ils seront bientôt plus rares que les ophtalmos...

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The Type 20: French Military Chronographs par Stephen Sugiyama

Citation :

The Type 20: French Military Chronographs

In the 1950s and 1960s several manufacturers supplied chronograph wristwatches to the French military forces. These were originally designated Type 20. After a period it became expensive to maintain and repair these watches, and a new series was introduced using more modern movements, the Type 21.



On the left is an Auricoste Type 20. In the center and on the right are two views of a Vixa Type 20, c. 1954. The Vixa has a 39 mm stainless steel case and screwed back.
On the immediate right is the caseback for the Vixa pictured above. The "5100 54" issue code is engraved above the serial number. The first "FG" mark is also engraved, with the warranty running until May 1956. Four additional "FG" service stampings can be seen, as well as the "P" signifying a visit to the Pechoin facility. On the far right is the 17-jewel cal. 50 (Hanhart) movement found in the Vixa




There were several suppliers of these chronographs, but my references are not entirely clear on this issue. Wesolowski writes that they were supplied by Auricoste, Breguet, and Vixa in the 1950s, and Dodane in the 1960s. Knirim lists the same makers but mentions that the Dodane-manufactured watches were sometimes marked with "Airain" or other labels. L'Orologio says that the Type 20 was commissioned to six makers: Breguet and Vixa (1950), Boullier and Auricoste (1954), and Dodane and Airain (1960).

One of the French Defense Ministry's requirements for the Type 20 and Type 21 was the flyback (retour en vol) function. The flyback is also called the "Taylor system" or "permanent zero setting." The flyback allows you to instantly stop, reset, and restart the chronograph with a single press of the lower button. This is useful when you don't really need to know the actual event duration, only that the timed event was completed within a certain limit, and are then going on to monitor another event. While not a significant mechanical complication, the flyback feature is a great convenience for a operation that is common in aviation. The "permanent zero setting" mechanism, implemented on the basic two-button chronograph function invented by Breitling in 1933, was patented by Longines-Francillon in 1936.

Other basic mechanical specifications for the Type 20 included an accuracy within 8 seconds/day, a power reserve of more than 35 hours, and the ability to handle the start-stop-reset operation 300 times without any problems.

The primary recipients of these chronographs were the pilots and flying personnel of the French Air Force, French Navy, and the CEV (Centre D'Essai en Vol, the French flight test center). Some of these watches saw duty in the French Indochina war. A number were also sold to the air forces of Morocco and Argentina.

The watches belonging to the French forces were overhauled every year. (In theory, anyway.) After servicing, the casebacks were marked with the letters "FG" which stand for Fin de Garantie (end of warranty) and the date of the next scheduled maintenance. The caseback shown at the right is from an Auricoste Type 20, and shows a series of servicing stamps.

Repair facilities included the Dodane manufacturer in Besançon and various repair units operated by the different service branches. Sometimes there is an engraved "P" on the caseback, which means that the watch had been to the Pechoin workshop in Paris. This workshop had a contract with the French forces and specialized in the repair of aviation timepieces.



The Type 20 and Type 21 had some common features. All were two-button manual-winding flyback chronographs. All had black dials, luminous hands and arabic numerals, a finely-divided seconds chapter at the outer edge of the dial, and bidirectional revolving bezel. All were in cases of approximately 38 mm x 14 mm.

Beyond the basic similarities, however, there was a wide variation in the details of the different watches supplied by each manufacturers, and even different models supplied by the same manufacturer. Many different movements were used. Some watches had two chronograph registers and some had three. Some had a bezel inscribed with the hours, some had a bezel with a simple reference mark. The watches shown below illustrate some of these differences

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Citation :

Breguet

The Breguet Type 20 is the most famous, and, to collectors, the most valuable of the French military chronographs. Montres Breguet was founded in 1775 by the great inventor and clockmaker Abraham-Louis Breguet (1747-1823), and had its headquarters in Paris until it moved to Switzerland in the 1970s.

The Breguet watchmaking firm had a long history of involvement with aviation industry due to Louis Charles Breguet (1880-1955), who was a pioneer in aeronautics. Louis Breguet was the great-great-grandson of Abraham-Louis Breguet. Louis Breguet developed his first aircraft in 1909 and during World War I his company, Société d'Aviation Louis Breguet, produced about 5,500 Breguet XIV (Br-14) aircraft for the Allied Forces. Designed by Louis Breguet in 1916, the innovative Breguet Br-14 was a highly successful biplane used by the French, Belgian and American air services. It was rugged and versatile, and saw service as a reconnaissance aircraft, a bomber, and an ambulance. The Br-14 had a wingspan of 14.36 m and was powered by a Renault V12 engine which gave it a maximum speed of 177 km/h at 2,000 m and a ceiling of 5,800 m. After the war the advanced Breguet XIX made historic long-distance flights across continents and oceans.

In parallel with the aeronautic achievements, the Breguet watchmaking firm developed aeronautical instruments and aviation chronographs. Their first clients were the American pilots stationed in France, and they were soon followed by Louis Breguet's aircraft firm and many others.

The Breguet Type 20 chronograph was produced in small numbers until it won the official approval of the French services in 1950. From 1954, Breguet was commissioned by the French government to supply the Type 20 to the Air Force, the Naval Air Arm, and the CEV. The Breguet Type 20s used stainless steel cases and screwed case backs.

The standard model for the French Air Force had a 30-minute counter at 3 o'clock and used a Valjoux cal. 22 movement with an added flyback function. (This movement may have been called the Valjoux cal. 222.) The Valjoux cal. 22 was first released in 1914 and was one of the first chronograph movements designed for wristwatches. The 17-jewel rhodium-plated movement is 14''' (31.6 mm, 1''' = 2.2558 mm) and uses a monometalic balance and Breguet balance spring. There were approximately 2000 of this model made. The case back was engraved with "BREGUET TYPE 205101/54" and the serial number and year.

The French Navy ordered a version with a 15-minute register for their pilots. These were engraved with "BREGUET TYPE 20 MARINE NATIONALE ONE AERONAUTIQUE NAVALE" and had an antimagnetic interior shield.

The CEV ordered 500 watches with 2 registers and 50 watches with 3 registers; these were engraved with "CEV" and the serial number. The CEV version had 15-minute registers and bezel engraved with hour markers.


Some pilots purchased personal copies of the Breguet Type 20 and some civilian models were sold. Since they were built over period a of many years there are quite a few variations in style. (Including at least one non-military issue with a silver dial, fixed bezel, and applied indices -- almost unrecognizable but sold as a Type 20 at auction.) Some counterfit Breguet Type 20s have been seen, usually a Type 20 from a different manufacturer with a redial.

Breguet tried to win new contracts from the military in 1970 but their prices were too high. A second-generation civilian model was produced in the 1970s and 1980s, and has a heavier, polished steel case with squared lugs. This model used a gold-plated 17-jewel 14''' movement







Above are several examples of the Breguet Type 20. Note the different bezels, crowns, and hands. Some of the minutes registers total 15 minutes, some total 30 minutes, and some are enlarged to facilitate reading. The watch on the lower right is a second-generation Breguet Type 20 from the 1970s.

The watch to the left is one of the rare 3-register models issued to the CEV. Another example of a 1950s 3-register Breguet, part of Gordon Bethune's collection, is shown on page 26 of the Feb/Mar 1999 issue of InSync.

The third-generation Breguet Type 20 chronograph was launched in 1995 and has a fluted caseband and a Lemania self-winding movement.



Vixa

The Vixa Type 20 was built in 1954 with case and movement by Hanhart. The company "Vixa" was named after a late president of Timex Watches France. (Timex had a factory in Besançon until 1960.) Some 4000-5000 Vixa Type 20 chronographs were supplied.

Adolf Hanhart was founded in 1882 and made stopwatches and timing products. The original factory was founded in Diessenhofen, Switzerland; it later moved to Schwenningen, Germany. In 1924 production relocated to Gütenbach, Germany. After the war, the Black Forest was part of the French Occupation Zone, so Hanhart produced chronographs under the Vixa name for the French forces. These deliveries were part of the German reparation payments to France. (Walter Storz [Stowa] provided watches for the French ground forces.) Since the 1960s Hanhart has concentrated on timers and stopwatches but they have recently re-introduced wristwatches to their product line, including a replica of their famous fliegerchronograph.




Above are three examples of the Vixa Type 20 from the 1950s. They have a reeded bezel and are marked "Antimagnetic" on the dial. The cases are stainless steel with a screwed caseback, and, at 39 mm, slightly larger than other Type 20s. The watches of the French Air Force were marked with the number "5100 54" and the respective serial numbers.

The Vixa Type 20 chronographs were similar to the Hanhart chronographs of the post-war German Federal Air Force. The movement is a rather large 16''' 17-jewel Hanhart movement, variously described as a cal. 4054 (Antiquorum), a cal. 40 (von Halem), or a cal. 15 (Knirim). The movement is only marked "Germany" (not "Hanhart" or "Vixa"). The Vixa was the only Type 20/21 to use a German movement.


Auricoste

Another manufacturer of the Type 20 chronograph was Auricoste, a specialist in naval clocks, stopwatches, and wristwatches. Auricoste was founded in 1854 by Emile Thomas, a clockmaker, who developed marine chronometers. In 1889 Thomas was succeeded by Joseph Auricoste, and in 1900 Auricoste was awarded a gold medal at the Paris Universal Exhibition. Today Auricoste supplies clock and timekeeping systems for marine applications and has its headquarters in Paris.

Auricoste provided around 2000 Type 20 chronographs under contract and delivered them to the French military between August 1954 and March 1955. The Auricoste Type 20 used Lemania movements that were marked "Auricoste." At least two different movement were used, one being the Auricoste cal. 2040 (Lemania cal. 15TL). The cal. 2040 is a 17-jewel, 15''' movement (33.3 mm x 6.5 mm), 18,000 bph, with a Breguet balance spring and Incabloc shock protection. The Lemania 15TL was introduced in 1940 and was Lemania's first movement to implement the flyback function. Another movement used by Auricoste in the Type 20 was a rhodium-plated 16-jewel, 14''' movement. And at least some movements were delivered with a swan-neck regulator. There were also two case types, one in stainless steel and one a plated base metal case; both used a stainless steel snap-on back.

Two other models were built in small numbers later: a model for the Moroccan and Argentinian air forces and one for the civilian market with a tachymeter scale. These later models were in steel and had a screwed caseback, and were supplied until 1961. The Argentinian pilots, who were trained in France, carried these watches in the Falkland War against Britain.






Above are several examples of the Auricoste Type 20. The bidirectional bezel is knurled and has a simple reference mark. The 30-minute register is at 9 o'clock. The watch on the lower right has a screwed back.





The caseback on the left is marked "C.E.V.," the original owner of this watch. (The back looks a bit funny because it is covered by a clear protection sticker.) This watch does not show any "FG" inspection stamps; perhaps it was kept in storage and not serviced. The center and right pictures show the Auricoste cal. 2040 (Lemania cal. 15TL) movement.

The watch on the left is not a Type 20, but is an interesting flyback chronograph made by Auricoste in the 1950s for the French army. It is difficult to see in this picture, but there is a small window at 3 o'clock for a digital minutes counter. It has a bezel marked in hours, a 12-hour totalizer at 6 o'clock, and a steel case with a screwed back.



Dodane and Airain

Dodane was founded by Alphonse Dodane in 1857 in Besançon. They were a long-time specialist in aviation timepieces, having constructed them for the US Army and Signal Corps since World War I. Besides manufacturing watches for the French armed forces, Dodane was a key part of their maintenance and service organization, and did general overhauls on all Type 20 and Type 21 watches in production.

Dodane constructed Type 20 and Type 21 chronographs between 1960 and 1980. (A small series was issued to NATO in the 1970s.) Total production was around 5000 pieces. Dodane used different movements at different times. They started with their own movements and then switched to outside movements including the Valjoux cal. 22 (cal. 222?) and later the Valjoux cal. 720. The change to the Valjoux cal. 720 may have been made with the switch to the Type 21.

All Dodane chronographs had the same stainless steel housing with a screw-back. Generally the caseback was engraved with the Phoenix of the Besançon observatory. Most of the Dodane models had an bezel engraved with the hours in count-down order (opposite of the Breguet direction).





The watch above, left is a Dodane Type 21 with a black bezel from the 1950s. In the center is a Dodane Type 21 with an unmarked bezel, c. 1955. On the above, right is Dodane Type 21, c. 1965. Directly to the right is a Dodane Type 21, c. 1974.



Another example of the Dodane Type 21 from 1968 is shown in A Concise Guide to Military Timepieces on page 156-157, with a photo of the front and back. The back is marked with "All Steel," "Waterprotected," "Antimagnetic," and several "FG" service marks.

Most of the chronographs made by Dodane were two-register models. According to Knirim, these were differently marked: Dodane, Airain, Chronograph Militaire, and Chronofix.

Some 50 3-register models were built for French helicopter pilots. These are more difficult to find than the 3-register Breguet (of which 50 were also made) since they were more of a trial version than an official order. Some copies were also supplied to Morocco.




Above left and center is an Airain Type 20 and its Valjoux cal. 22 movement from the 1950s. On the right is an Airain, c. 1955; its movement is described as a 14''', 17-jewel movement with a monometalic balance, shock protection, and a Breguet balance spring

Postscript

The Type 20 chronograph is no longer used by the French armed forces. New chronographs were evaluated at the beginning of the 1970s. In 1973 the Pechoin workshops supplied a set of prototypes using Valjoux movements, some labeled Type 21 and some labeled Type 22, but neither were offically accepted. Since that time, chronographs from many manufacturers have been tested and small procurements have been made. At one time the Air Force purchased Yema quartz chronographs; Breitling Plutons were selected for the Naval pilots; most service branches experiemented with Casio G-Shocks. But all of these watches were commercially available. The time when watches were a special military instrument is past.

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More Type 20 Chronographs
This page contains additional photographs of Type 20 and Type 21 chronographs




On the left is an Auricoste Type 20. In the center and on the right are two views of a Vixa Type 20, c. 1954. The Vixa has a 39 mm stainless steel case and screwed back.
On the immediate right is the caseback for the Vixa pictured above. The "5100 54" issue code is engraved above the serial number. The first "FG" mark is also engraved, with the warranty running until May 1956. Four additional "FG" service stampings can be seen, as well as the "P" signifying a visit to the Pechoin facility. On the far right is the 17-jewel cal. 50 (Hanhart) movement found in the Vixa



Photograph credits and copyrights belong to: Ken Fox (TimeZone), Gisbert Joseph (Spain).

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pas de chance !!
mon horloger il m'a tourné pas mal d'axes dont un vixa et il tourne parfaitement
par contre le chronofixe j'achete !!!!
le vixa est relativement solide mais il faut penser que le mouvement est rustique et qu'il doit etre bien révisé
apres a mon avis les canelures de la lunette et les poussoirs sont les points a surveiller de pres !!
cdt

Merci Dynamo pour toute ces infos sur la Type XX.

cordialement
Icare

une infos en plus , ci-dessous chronofixe type 21 avec FG et calibre 230 "doré" destiné aux chronofixe, je reconnais que je ne porte pas souvent mon VIXA par manque d'incabloc mais celui la sans probleme

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Pour ma part c'est plutôt la présence de Radium qui ferait que je ne porte pas cette montre...

6 ans après ces questions ma réponse est qu'il vaut mieux ne pas les porter. Je sais que je vais faire hurler mais un test des cadrans démontre une irradiation élevée à cause du radium. Ce sujet a été faussement réglé dans certains états américains qui imposent que les cadrans et aiguilles soient nettoyés de la peinture radium sur les pièces d'occasion commercialisées. Une forte amende est infligée en cas de non respect de ce dispositif.

Les cadrans et calibres, boites et verres restent malgré tout chargés en radioactivité. Les verres plastque de faible épaisseur ne sont pas adaptés et à l'invers du tritium qui peut être contenu dans une boite et avec un verre étanche sans danger, le radium reste très polluant. En 12 heures, une montre au radium pollue une vitrine.

Certaines montres restent malgré tout très attachantes et j'ai opté sur les corps of Engineers par exemple pour revendre les miennes et racheter des modèles sans radium, donc nettoyés. C'est un peu moins authentique mais plus rassurant même si ce sentiment n'est pas si fondé.

Je ne porte plus de type 20.

Merci pour cette mise au point ZEN. Et avec des jeunes enfants à la maison c'est vraiment important de mettre ces montres à l'écart.

sans parler des horloges de bord et de voiture qui sont blindées de ces matières...

j'affectionne (peut-être à tord) ces montres militaires, sans les porter, mais je suis freiné pour ces grosses pièces.

Y a t-il des études scientifiques réalisées à ce sujet?
Je ne suis pas certain que ce soit plus dangereux de porter une montre au radium un an que de rester 5 minutes devant un micro-ondes ou d'habiter à 50 mètres d'un emetteur fm.
Moi je dois avoir 90% de montres au radium alors j'ai pas le choix mais ça ne m'inquiète pas à moins que je lise une étude professionnelle qui me fasse changer d'avis.